Skyrim talk:Season Unending

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Archive 1: Nov 2011 - Mar 2012
Archive 2: Apr 2012 - Aug 2013

Does refusing a demand change the score?

Here's some analysis of the mechanics that I have made (clean file, no civil war allegiances):

Phase 1 seems to be entirely as written on the main page. Elenwen staying/leaving gives one point to the faction the decision favors, Markarth is worth 2 for Stormcloak, Riften is worth 2 for imperials, Dawnstar only worth 1 (the speech check seems to be irrelevant to the negotiation beyond getting extra speechcraft XP). I can't get the phase 2 point spread to -2 Stormcloak since Ulfric auto-demands Markarth unless you've already joined him. Ulfric will only ever demand Falkreath in Phase 2, while Tullius will first demand Compensation for Karthwasten (which I havne't so much as visited on this save) and then Winterhold.

-1 Stormcloak: -> Falkreath handed over: Fair Deal -> Refuse Falkreath: Imperial-favored Deal, no other demands made

Even Score (Tullius makes demands): -> Compensation for Karthwasten: Fair Deal, Winterhold not mentioned. -> Refuse compensation, hand over Winterhold: Fair Deal -> Refuse both: Stormcloak-favored Deal

-1 Imperial: -> Compensation for Karthwasten: Fair Deal, Winterhold not mentioned. -> Refuse compensation, hand over Winterhold: Stormcloak-favored Deal

-2 Imperial: -> Must accept both Karthwasten and Winterhold for Fair Deal -> otherwise, Stormcloak-favored Deal.

From what I can tell (especially from the -1 Imperial and the even score sections) is that refusing the demand of Compensation for Karthwasten will tip the negotiations one point in the Stormcloaks' favor. At -1, refusing compensation yet accepting Winterhold will still result in a -1 offset in favor of the Stormcloaks, while an even score refusal of Karthwasten will result in Winterhold being demanded (in addition, Tullius switches to the -1 dialogue where he distrusts the Dragonborn's neutrality). — Unsigned comment by Toadofsteel (talk • contribs) at 19:52 on 10 February 2014 (GMT)

Meeting not starting

I can confirm that bug... I noticed it might be because Legate Rikke seems to up and leave High Hrothgar for no reason. — Unsigned comment by 184.155.16.143 (talk) at 00:51 on 19 March 2014‎

Thanks for the confirmation. I'll update the article. --Xyzzy ^Talk 05:13, 19 March 2014 (GMT)

No Holds Exchanged

Just like in this archive post, I'm also getting no holds exchanged, only I'm on the Stormcloak side. I'll look into it more tomorrow (so far, my CK/console investigations have gotten me precisely nowhere), but I wanted to know if it's happened to anyone else and/or if there's any reason that this should happen that anyone's aware of. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 06:42, 14 May 2014 (GMT)

It should happen if you've nearly completed the civil war questline, in which case the negotiations fail and this quest can't be completed, you have to finish the civil war in order to play through The Fallen. --Morrolan (talk) 17:29, 24 October 2014 (GMT)

Yes, I remember looking into it after that post, and I'm pretty sure that's what happened in my case, Morrolan. Apparently, I forgot to post back about it. Thanks for the response. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 20:12, 24 October 2014 (GMT)

Question - getting the Stormcloaks to control Falkreath through negotiation.

Is it supposed to be possible to negotiate when playing as the Imperials that Falkreath Hold becomes Stormcloak controlled? Biffa (talk) 16:25, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

Yes, the how to is under the Allied with the Imperials header. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 16:28, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

How I read it, it should be the offered as a minor hold to help balance the sides, but what I've found on two separate games, one as the Imperials and one as the Stormcloaks. As Below: In both cases the only hold that has been fought over is Whiterun.

Playing as Imperials:

Elenwen stay = +1

The reach = -2

The rift = +2 or Winterhold +1

If choosing The rift = +2, it's not balanced, but the only options are to give Haaljmarch or The empire doesn't need to give up any more ::territory.

Playing as Stormcloaks:

Elenwen stay = +1

The rift = +2

The reach = -2 or Falkreath -1

If choose the Reach, it's not balanced, but the only options are to take Haaljmarch or The empire doesn't need to give up any more territory.

It doesn't make sense to me but I can't see what I am doing wrong. Biffa (talk) 17:11, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

Is the initial counter-offer choice randomized?

So, if I specifically want, say, Riften and Dawnstar, but they both get offered together at first, I only get to choose one plus potentially Winterhold. Is the choice randomized if i reload a save after the offer is made? — Unsigned comment by 178.41.73.137 (talk) at 16:02 on 30 June 2014‎

No Riften or Markarth is always a forced handover to the side you are not on. i.e if you are a Stormcloak, then the Imperials insist on Riften, and Stormcloaks insist on Markarth if you are on the Legions side. Then you get options to decide what is a fair trade. The other options are also preset as per the quest details. Biffa (talk) 01:44, 2 July 2014 (GMT)

Positive Elenwen Counts?

I just did a few play-throughs of the negotiations to see how things turned out. And in my view, I'm not convinced that getting Elenwen to leave counts as much as it is perhaps assumed. Either that, or Tullius defaults to being unreasonable unless you give him multiple holds.

The first attempt I did was stacked against the Imperials - they only got Winterhold and massacre compensation for both Markarth and making Elenwen leave.

The second time was, in theory, balanced: I let Elenwen stay and gave the Imperials Winterhold, but they still sulked at the end and said it was unfair. That surely was a score of 0 - or 2 points for each?

When I tried again, I let Elenwen stay, gave them Winterhold and the compensation and - unsurprisingly - Ulfric thought that was unfair for just Markarth.

The only way I was able to get it to even out was to make Elenwen leave, but then give the Imperials Winterhold and Dawnstar - as well as the compensation. That's 3 points each, or a final position of 0. This was accepted as fair by all.

So in my experience, either making Elenwen leave doesn't count for as much as assumed, or Tullius will be unhappy unless he gets multiple holds. Any thoughts? — Unsigned comment by 5.64.89.39 (talk) at 23:42 on 23 October 2014

As already noted, if it is a neutral treaty they will express disappointment, only a positive treaty gets a positive response. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 00:52, 24 October 2014 (GMT)

That's my point, though. I'm negotiating what should be a neutral treaty but it isn't actually working out that way. When things are level according to the scoring (when including Elenwen in the equation), Tullius still behaves as though it's slanted against him. — Unsigned comment by 5.64.89.39 (talk) at 00:57 on 24 October 2014

Elenwen stays or not affects whether to pay compensation or not. To be fair, if Elenwen stays, Ulfric doesn't have to pay compensation. If Elenwan leaves, Ulfric has to pay compensation to even things out. Ulfric then takes 1 major hold (Markath) even out Tulius taking 2 minor holds (Dawnstar and Winterhold). Thus eventually it is fair. That is why when initially you persuade Ulfric to let Elenwen stays would give them advantage later, and Ulfric agrees. That advantage is Ulfric doesn't have to pay compensation. — Unsigned comment by 175.138.239.204 (talk) at 14:55 on 2 December 2014 (GMT)

Rescue from Fort Kastav(quest) locked off, Legate Rank Unattainable

This is neither a glitch nor a bug, just a situation overlooked in the original game related to the Civil War questline. After completing Season Unending, during which the player successfully convinces Tullius to accept Winterhold in trade, the player is unable to achieve Legate rank. The Fort Kastav rescue mission in the Imperial side of the Civil War questline, which grants the rank of Legate when finished, is never given to the player because the Legion already occupies Winterhold. 97.125.243.248 19:39, 24 November 2014 (GMT)

To be fair (with Arngeir's comment)

To be fair to all parties, this is one of the way to do it (I knew this even before I knew about the score from this page):

Don't join Imperial or Stormcloak first. Let Elenwen stays. Ulfric will take Markath (major hold). When Tulius asks for Riften or Dawnstar/Winterhold (either one of this, normally it is Dawnstar) in return, don't give him Riften (major hold), give him Dawnstar/Winterhold (minor hold). Tulius will ask Ulfric for massacre compensation, don't agree with him. Tulius will be disappointed, and finally asks for Winterhold/Dawnstar (either one of this, normally it is Winterhold). Give him Winterhold. Tulius would say something like I knew I can count on you.

After this, everyone will be pleased as it is fair. If you talk to Arngeir after the meeting, Arngeir will comment that you are fair as well (forgot what he actually says.) — Unsigned comment by 175.138.239.204 (talk) at 14:26 on 2 December 2014 (GMT)

Vignar the Uninvited

I've sided with the Imperials and decided to walk up to earn the Voice of the Sky effect by reading the etchings as I go. When I neared the top I could see both Esbern and Delphine arriving, but also Vignar Gray-Mane leaving and beginning to walking back down. Firstly is this normal and also if you sided with the Stormcloaks would you meet Balgruuf as he leaves? I presume the arrival of Esbern and co. is automatically just before you, as it was several days ago I spoke to General Tullis and several before that, that I spoke to Jarl Ulfric. Cheers. Biffa (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2015 (GMT)

I can't confirm the exact behaviour in-game, though I know I've seen people arriving or leaving before. Looking at the packages that get added to Vignar and Balgruuf for Season Unending, it looks like this is normal behaviour. Either should leave at Stage 300 of the quest. Vignar will head for the Palace of the Kings. Balgruuf is only scripted to head just outside High Hrothgar; I suspect his regular packages would kick in once he gets there and send him wherever he should be at that point. As far as arrivals, I only looked at Esbern, but it looks like he should travel to the exterior of High Hrothgar as soon as you get the objective to "Talk to Arngeir". After that, he would wait there until you got close to High Hrothgar, at which point, he'd move inside. If you mountain-climbed your way around the trigger, he'd probably just stand there like an idiot. :Þ I assume entering High Hrothgar would trigger later quest stages and fix that. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 01:32, 11 January 2015 (GMT)

Thanks for checking. Biffa (talk) 12:44, 14 January 2015 (GMT)

Massacre at Karthwasten

After many play throughs and searching online, I have never come across a case where any massacre occurred that wasn't at Karthwasten. This article states that multiple locations are possible on both sides. I do not believe this to be accurate and am convinced that Karthwasten is the only possibility in the released version of the game. I know that dialogue apparently exists for other locations but it looks like they were either removed prior to release or never fully implemented. Has anyone EVER come across a compensation request for an alternate location in game? If not I feel the article should be edited accordingly.

Also has anyone had a situation where Karthwasten was not mentioned (other than where the Stormcloaks are making the final requests)? — Unsigned comment by 49.195.3.243 (talk) at 02:55 on 12 March 2015 (GMT)

Phase Two Options

Per the older discussion, Can't Offer Winterhold, I don't believe it's ever possible to offer either Falkreath when sided with the Imperials or Winterhold when sided with the Stormcloaks. I can confirm that I'm not offered Winterhold on the Stormcloak side no matter what. Regardless of pro-Stormcloak choices up to that point, the negotiations invariably conclude after Dawnstar is discussed. In support of this theory, the game code suggests that trading Falkreath or Winterhold should have been possible only under certain conditions where a massacre occurred somewhere other than Karthwasten. However, massacres anywhere else were removed from the game, as mentioned in the topic above this one and on the Civil War page.

This effectively means that The Battle for Fort Kastav can only be triggered if you come into the negotations neutral and later side with the Stormcloaks, or come in with the Imperials prior to completing The Jagged Crown but then turn coat and give the crown to the Stormcloaks. Similarly, on the Imperial side, since trading Falkreath seems not to be an option, I believe the only way to trigger The Battle for Fort Neugrad is to side with the Stormcloaks initially, give Falkreath to them during negotations, then turn coat and join the Imperials during The Jagged Crown.

Does anyone have any insight into any of this? – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 07:07, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

I can confirm that while sided with Stormcloaks ,Winterhold was requested by the Imperials. Chris41975 — Unsigned comment by 76.118.50.142 (talk) at 20:47 on 4 October 2016 (UTC)

What point were you at in the Stormcloak quest? I don't remember for sure, but I believe it "doesn't count" if you haven't passed a certain point yet. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 19:10, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

I did once get Falkreath offered as well. I was on the Stormcloak side, but hadn't started the civil war questline at all (I think I may have killed the ice wraith, but that was it). It's very rare though. --Morrolan (talk) 14:50, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

I can confirm Falkreath is offered: Neutral start. Agreed to keep the Thalmor in the meeting. Gave Riften to the Imperials. Immediately following(skipping the whole second phase for some reason), Falkreath was given to Ulfric. — Unsigned comment by 141.226.181.189 (talk) at 15:45 on 9 March 2018 (UTC)

I was able to have Ulfric ask for Falkreath while I was sided with the Imperials.

I wanted it traded to the Stormcloaks in order to obtain Lakeview Manor, due to a complication with the Dark Brotherhood Kill Helvard quest.

My preconditions were that I had sided with the Imperials initially, I had completed The Jagged Crown for the Imperials and had just started Message to Whiterun, but had not given the message from Tullius to Jarl Balgruuf yet. All holds were with their default allegiances.

During Council, I reached Phase 2 where Ulfric demanded a minor hold by doing the following: Keep Elenwen, choose Riften during Phase 1 from choice between Riften and a minor hold. This forced Phase 2.

During Phase 1, I got offered Riften or Winterhold, and during Phase 2, Ulfric requested Morthal as the minor hold. Rejecting Morthal ended the council meeting with Ulfric reluctantly accepting the deal. Falkreath was not requested. I tried many times reloading a save right before taking my seat at the council. I repeated the above choices, thinking perhaps it was random, but it was always Riften/Winterhold in Phase 1 and Morthal in Phase 2. For that matter, no series of responses ever got Falkreath requested by the Stormcloaks.

So I dug into the Creation Kit. I'm no expert with this software, but I found that the locations to be traded are set not during the council, but right after both Tullius and Ulfric agree to attend the council meeting, when you get the objective to Talk to Arngeir. And the choice of the minor holds does seem to be random.

I had been reloading after the locations were already determined apparently. So I reloaded a save from before both parties agreed to attend the meeting. This time, after keeping Elenwen, in Phase 1, I got the choice of Riften/Dawnstar. Choosing Riften, I got Morthal in Phase 2. I reloaded again. Same choices, same holds offered: Riften/Dawnstar and Morthal. Reloaded again. Finally, Riften/Winterhold and Falkreath. So if you want different trades, reload an earlier save. The locations are random but are determined earlier than you may think.65.32.238.233 08:43, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Confirming what the above said. The point system didn't work at all for this; there appears to be a bug. Tullius got angry/said this isn't fair, then said never mind, this is the fairest we'll get--without going into "phase two." Instead, I kept Elenwen in, gave Riften over, and then Falkreath was offered to Ulfric. Very strange, and doesn't seem to follow the article's guide at all. I was neutral, having not sided with either side nor started the Civil War quests.--92.117.188.68 12:20, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

What determines which Stormcloak minor hold (either Dawnstar or Winterhold) gets demanded in round one?

As an Imperial, your alternative to demanding Riften in the first round of negotiations is one of two minor holds: Dawnstar or Winterhold. The other can be demanded in round two, if necessary. However, the page doesn't explain what circumstances cause one or the other to show up first. Anyone here know? 76.97.86.57 16:46, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

As far as anyone can tell, it's random, and probably determined during game initialization. --Morrolan (talk) 12:24, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Positive/Negative Values In Tables

This isn't the first time someone has tried to change the negative values to positive in the various tables in the article. Would it make more sense to change them all to positive values, then change the text in the tables to match (i.e., "if Stormcloak value is higher than Imperial value")? – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 03:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I think positive/negative gives a clear and certain way to work out the details. Going all positive would probably see less intervention on the page, but more "I'm confused" messages on the talk page. There is also the matter of (currently) 0 figures that translate into "if the numbers are level" that favor either side at certain times, given that the you cannot do this as a truly neutral character. Also the game uses positive/negative to "Track the relative position of the negotiations" from a starting 0, so if it works for Bethesda it should work for us. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 17:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Soldiers no longer neutral

I haven't checked elsewhere, but since I exchanged the Rift against the Reach the Stormcloak garrison of Fort Kastav and the soldiers of the Rift Stormcloak camp draw their weapons and with little patience order me to move on when I pass the place. Even after Alduin's end I'm still neutral in the war (because it's still too early in the year and too cold to wear a legion skirt armour with the Frostfall mod), so I have no idea why they are hostile. City guards, even in Windhelm itself, don't have a problem with me.

Is handing over a Stormcloak controlled hold during Season Unending the reason for that? I haven't checked Legion places except Ivarstead and Riften, but those are city guards, too, and have no quarrel with me. 109.43.112.184 20:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)